Sid: We want everyone to understand there’s a heresy that is sweeping Christianity and like all heresy’s it’s got a lot of good, but it has enough arsenic to cost your eternal life. I have Dr. Michael Brown in the studio. Dr. Brown has a PhD in Semitic Languages. He speaks reads or writes at least a dozen languages. He’s studied the Bible in its original languages for decades. I’ve asked him and he’s put together one of the finest defining books on this movement that’s sweeping Christianity called Hyper-Grace. Give me a few ideas Dr. Brown on what some of these teachers are saying.
Michael: Of course Sid in my book I document in detail exactly what’s being said. I affirm the truth of the grace message that some of these men are teaching and preaching and then point out the error. Here are some of the errors. One is the idea that God has already pronounced forgiven all of our future sins. Not that Jesus paid for them, we all agree with that, but that we have already been pronounced forgiven in advance of our future sins. Therefore you never confess your sin to God because God’s already forgiven it.
Sid: So what would happen if I said “But you’re supposed to repent when you sin to a hyper grace teacher?”
Michael: Awe Sid, “Your under a legalistic way of thinking, your into behavior modification and sin management. Repent just means I agree with God, I agree that I’m righteous that’s all repent means.” Of course it’s not what repents means and I detail that in the book with scripture and with dictionaries but that would be the response. “Repent just means come into agreement with God; change your mind about what you’re thinking you’re righteous.” Now we are saints, God calls us saints. And we’re now called to live like saints. What hyper-grace people would say is “We have already been completely sanctified; we are already completely totally perfectly holy in God’s sight. Every day God is thrilled with us singing our praises no matter what sin I commit God doesn’t see it because He is already said “I’ll remember your sin no more, therefore the Holy Spirit will never convict me of sin because God doesn’t see the sin and He’s pronounced it forgiven.
Sid: And the teaching like that is a in my opinion a license to sin. A license to sin will result in hardness of heart; hardness of heart will result in someone being demonized and either going into something totally counterfeit in thinking or being totally deceived. Well that’s what someone demonized is totally deceived. I’m concerned where it’s headed. Is it true that some of them are saying “There is no hell, there is no devil.” I mean “How far are they going to go?”
Michael: Yeah, some say of course there is a devil but that the devil might ultimately be saved; are there any limits to God’s grace? Some are saying that if there is a hell it’s only temporary that everybody will ultimately make it in; that’s true grace. Some are saying this “I don’t sin.” You say “No, no, no you just admitted to me that sometimes you’ll be guilty of anger. “No, no, no that’s not me.” My spirit is perfect that’s just my flesh sinning and it’s not really me.”
Sid: (Laughing)
Michael: And Sid it reminds me of…
Sid: I don’t understand how anyone that knows the word could accept these things.
Michael: Because what happens is you’ll take a truth alright, and then you’ll take it to its logical extreme outside of the rest of scriptural truth. If Jesus already died for my sins then I’m already forgiven and He paid the full price; if I’m not under grace, if it’s not under works; if it’s not matter of law and so on and so forth therefore… so what they do is they breakaway from a ton of other scripture. Often they break away from the context itself. Do you want to know how far it goes Sid? You say “But Jesus said in the Lord’s prayer “Forgive us as we forgive others.” No, no, Jesus was teaching Jews under the Old Covenant.
Sid: Oh, no but no one could believe that; no one with half of a brain could believe that Mike!
Michael: Sid, there are sincere people out there. I’ve dialogued with them; I’ve interacted with them. And they say “The Sermon on the mount was for Jews under the law.” Everything that Jesus taught up until He died on the cross was Old Covenant. The New Covenant didn’t start so they are… Sid they are robbing from us from the church the precious words of Jesus. John 14 Jesus told the disciples the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance what He said. Matthew 28 the great commission is to make disciples by teaching them everything Jesus taught. John 15 “If you abide in Me and My words abide in you.” All these things about the words of Jesus from the early church they prized; they hung on every word. That’s by the gospel authors spent years, decades compiling putting things together before the published this. Now were we being told that it doesn’t apply. So take up your cross; follow Jesus and “No, no, no that doesn’t apply to us anymore.”
Sid: If I was a dogmatic hyper-grace teacher, which praise God I’m not, and you extended an invitation for me because Mike has his own radio show that’s nationally syndicated and it’s called “The line of fire.” And I would want to be on your show; have you approached them?
Michael: I have approached a number of different teachers…
Sid: Well, if they’re so sure that they’re right why wouldn’t they want to be to help you?
Michael: Well, I’ve said “Look, let’s discuss this; I’m not a nasty person; I’m not mean spirited.” Look you’ve seen me debate Rabbi’s and others and I’ll give them a shot. Look Sid I constantly take invitations to go on secular radio to go on hostile territory. If hyper-grace university and hyper-grace city and hyper-grace church said “Mike we’d like you to come on and debate our 10 top people.” Tell me when, tell me where and I’d be there in heartbeat because we can’t be afraid of the truth.
Sid: So why… will they debate their issues? Or do they just want to expound on the air?
Michael: Thus far, no. Now some of them just are not debtors; they’re gentle kind of people and “Look man I don’t want to get into an argument. You have your view; I bless you.”
Sid: The top people on TV.
Michael: I can’t; well some will just not respond to invitations for whatever reason; even though we’ve got quite a nice platform with our radio show.
Sid: Okay.
Michael: But others Sid they just don’t like to be challenged.
Sid: Okay, I will challenge top ones. I’ll make my TV Show available to you if you will debate Dr. Brown on something that you’re basing your entire reputation on. Alright let’s get back to your book the book is called “Hyper-Grace Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.” Mike you talk about a word that a lot of Christians don’t understand “Sanctification, sanctified.” What does that mean?
Michael: Yeah, I have a whole chapter called “Sanctified or not.” Sanctified simply means set apart to God as holy; that’s all it means. Sanctified is set apart to God as holy. Here’s what hyper-grace teachers get right and here what they get wrong. Scripture plainly says “We have already been sanctified.” In other words, the moment we get saved even when we still have all kinds of baggage and junk. Look I quite shooting heroine December 17th of ’71 but I was not a perfectly saintly individual at that moment, and I’ve been growing in the Lord.
Sid: Alright but can’t they separate and say “That’s the positional thing?” But we’re growing in…
Michael: Ah, alright but we would say there’s 3 phrases to sanctification. We’ve already been set apart to God as holy; we are already sanctified. We are being sanctified we are growing in grace and conduct and in the future we’ll be ultimately perfectly sanctified with the resurrection. They reject that. They say “It is all in the past.” In other words they take what theologians call positional sanctification that’s where we stand positionally in Jesus. We’re seated in heavenly places positionally but we’re still walking here on the earth right. We’ve already been declared holy but we’re being made holy. We’re pursing holiness. They say “No, no, no.” They reject sanctification as a process, they reject sanctification in an ongoing way. That’s one of the biggest errors. If I have already been set apart as perfectly holy and God sees me as perfectly holy, therefore I don’t sin and I’m not accountable for my sins or my sins are not part of who I really am because my spirit is perfect; that’s just flesh doing these things. It’s one of their fundamental errors so I unpack it. Yes, there are verses that say that we have already been sanctified. But then Paul writes in 1st Thessalonians 4 and says “This is the will of God your sanctified.” Guys don’t sleep around with someone else wife; control your body; be holy.” And if you despise this you don’t despise man but God who gives us His Holy Spirit. Paul prays for the Thessalonians in 1st Thessalonians 5:23 “That God would sanctify them holy.” And 2nd Corinthians 7:1 Paul says “Having these promises these wonderful promises from God that we have been declared as children and the temple of the Spirit.” He says “Now having had these promises let us perfect holiness.” So because we have been set apart as holy, that’s why we have been called saints in the New Testament. God says “Live this out; it’s a process.” We grow that’s why we confess our sins it’s like getting our feet washed when they’re dirty we have already been bathed from head to toe but as we walk the roads of this world our feet get dirty. Ongoing cleansing and we grow and one day we’ll be perfectly sanctified.
Sid: Okay, that begs the question. Is there anything that we have to do to please God? Do we have to do works; what do they say; what does the Bible say?
Michael: I’ve got quotes from hyper-grace teachers saying “We must get rid of this God pleasing mentality. Sid, literal quotes. “If you are working to please God you’re going to have a lifetime of futile effort.” Now if they mean “I have to pray 8 hours today; I have to fast 28 days out of the month, I have to witness to 4 new people every day, or I’m not saved or I’m not pleasing God. Okay, let’s be delivered from that legalistic bondage; let’s be delivered from a mentality that I can only please God by trying harder. However, Paul writes in Ephesians 5 find out what pleases the Lord he says “We’re always seeking to please the Lord.” Sid, this is a relationship; one of the things that grieves me so much is things are taught in a non-relational way. I asked one hyper-grace teacher I said “If you sinned against your wife and you lost your temper with her and you left the house and you come back a few hours later and you haven’t spoken a word. When you get home would you say ‘Honey, I’m so abuse and in appropriate you’re a wonderful wife and godly woman. What I did was ugly please forgive me.’” And I said “Would you do that?” And he said “Of course.” Well I said “Wouldn’t you do that if you sinned against God?” And he said “My wife is not God it’s completely different.” You know Sid; that’s just relationship; that’s just when you really love the Lord so much and you realize you grieved him and your heart says “Father I want to please you and I want to honor you.”
Sid: I’m sorry Mike we’re out of time.
