SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with John Bevere with Something More. Now John Bevere, in 2009 there was a survey of thousands and thousands of Christians about the true meaning of grace. What did they find out?
JOHN: Well it’s kind of interesting. Over 5000 Christians were polled and these are born-again, Bible-believing, Sunday morning church-attending believers and the question was asked, give three or more one-word descriptions or definitions of grace; of the grace of God. What do you think of? What comes to mind when you hear it? The overwhelming response was; salvation. The second one was; forgiveness of sins. The third one was; a free gift. And the fourth one was; the love of God. And I’m so glad that Americans understand that we were saved by grace and only by grace. You can’t earn it. You can’t merit it. And by the grace of God, our sins are forgiven. I’m so thankful for that. The tragedy of the survey was that 2%, you heard what I said, 2%, the actual figure was 1.9 % of those that were polled said, “That grace was God’s empowerment.” Yet that is exactly how God defines His grace!
SID: Now if you don’t – but wait-a-second, John, if you don’t talk about sin then you don’t even need empowerment.
JOHN: Correct.
SID: I think that’s what one of the basic problems are.
JOHN: That’s correct. But you know if you look at the way God defines grace it’s so clear. Second Corinthians, chapter 12, verse 9, He said it to the Apostle Paul: “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power works best in your weakness.” Weakness meaning, your human inability. So in other words, God defines His grace as His power. If you look at Peter he says in 2nd Peter, chapter 1, “Grace be multiplied to you as His divine power.” So Peter refers to the grace of God as His divine power yet only 2% of the American Christians know that. Now the tragedy of this is, Sid, here’s where it comes in. Grace is the empowerment that gives us the ability to live beyond our natural ability. So before I was saved I did not have the ability to resist pornography, resist lust, resist a lot of things that displease God. After I got saved I now have the empowerment. However, here’s the problem. The problem is this. You can’t have anything from God unless you believe. I mean we know that to be true, right? So —
SID: Without faith, you can’t please God!
JOHN: Right. I mean, I mean the whole world is saved. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world yet only the ones who believe are the ones that are actually going to enter into the gates of heaven where even though for the rest it had been done because they didn’t believe they weren’t saved. “For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes.” So the key is, believing. So now let’s bring this over to the realm of grace. We in the body of Christ, I mean God says to us, “Pursue”. He doesn’t say casually stroll after. He says pursue which means chase after with the intent to apprehend. Pursue holiness without which no man will see the Lord. Now the question comes up with so many. How can I live holy? Because I tried and failed —
SID: Mmm!
JOHN: And tried and failed and tried and failed. So I became miserable. Tormented Christian because I know God. I see this mirage and I see this writing to pursue holiness. So at that point I’ve got, I’ve got an option. I can come up with a grace message that says all my sins, past, present and future are forgiven. It doesn’t matter how you live because we’re, really weak human beings that are sinful-natured and we’re going to sin so if I can’t resist the urge to go to bed with my girlfriend it’s okay, God understands but grace will save me. That is a one-dimensional view of grace and we totally remove the second dimension. The second dimension, yes grace forgives our sin, yes it does! The second dimension is it empowers us to be able to live free from sin. So if I don’t know that grace is God’s empowerment I can’t believe what I don’t know. So if 98% of the Christians in America don’t know that grace is God’s empowerment that means that 98% of the Christians in America are trying to live godly, holy in their own ability. And you know what that produces? That produces extreme frustration! We can’t live like Jesus without the grace of God but yet we can’t benefit from the grace of God unless we believe. Because the Bible says we have access to this grace through faith in Romans 5:2.
SID: So, so John, why is this left out of the popular teaching today? I see it all over the place about a wonderful concept called grace. Why is it left out?
JOHN: Well we, you know the leadership, many of the leaders in today’s Church were brought up under very, very stern church fathers who actually preached legalism from a, excuse me, preached holiness from a very legalistic standpoint. They would beat people up. They were mean-spirited. And so what happened is this generation does what we always do as humans. That is, we swung the pendulum to the other side. We had to find a message that would appeal to the masses and so many, and I’m not saying all, but many leaders started realizing if I come up with a grace message that is inclusive of everybody even if they love their sin then I can build a stronger following. And so these fathers were mean-spirited, they had many of them had very small churches but now what many leaders are thinking is if I broaden the message and don’t talk about the aspect of holiness then I will get people that will at least come and hear the word of God and eventually they might be changed. But yet if you look at the way Paul ministered to people. I mean you got a guy named, a King named Agrippa, excuse me I think his name was Agrippa. He was very wealthy. He was very interested in listening to Paul yet Paul what he talked to him about was righteousness, judgment and the judgment to come and discipline, self-discipline. And it so convicted him that the man said Paul I can’t hear any more of this. I don’t want this. If you look at Felix Paul made the—
SID: But, but, wait. You have to understand, John, that if someone says that on television that’ll be the same reaction King Agrippa had. I don’t want to look at this and then they won’t watch TV. I have to tell you for me and my house I don’t care if I go off ministry. I could care less! But I do care if I compromise and I’m never going to compromise. I mean what am I working for? For self, if I compromise. What good is that?
JOHN: You know Sid, God gave me a vision. And as you and I know there are different levels of vision. There is an open vision and there are spiritual visions. This was a spiritual vision. I saw it so clear in my spirit. He gave this to me in the early 1990’s. And I saw a mass of people that had come to the Gates of Heaven. Behind me was the Gates. Behind me was Jesus. I did not see either. God just let me see the faces on this sea of humanity. Every single one of these people called Jesus Christ their Lord. Every single one of these people was expecting Him to say, “Enter into the kingdom of God.” What I heard from coming from behind me, were the words, “Depart from me. I don’t know you, you who practice lawlessness.” And what God let me see is – God let me see the utter horror and shock that was on their faces because they fully believed from what they were taught, that they were going to heaven. When in reality, they lived continuously in their sin because leadership, one reason leadership didn’t help them confront them to get out of their sin –
SID: Speaking of leadership
JOHN: and so Sid—
SID: Speaking of leadership not confronting them it reminds me of the time you were watching TV. And a popular husband and wife couple, Christian pastors, were asked a question. It had quite an impact on you. Tell me about that.
JOHN: Well you know this couple is very passionate about getting souls saved. However, what they need is, they need to realize, that we can’t compromise true core Biblical principles to be able to reach people. And so the question was brought up, about living in immorality. And it was actually one of them made the statement, “It is not our place to tell people how to live.” Well, this is where –
SID: If pastors don’t declare and proclaim a moral compass no wonder this world is topsy-turvy again!
JOHN: Well, it’s not just the world. It’s the Church and that’s why this calibration has to be brought back. You know Sid I was reading the Book of Hebrews. And you know doing my daily Bible reading, and I was just enjoying. I was reading Psalms and Hebrews. And I just finished Psalms, and I was turning my Bible over to Hebrews. And this just happened, just in the last couple of weeks. And I heard the Holy Spirit say, “Read Revelation.” And it was a little firm because what happened was, a couple of weeks before that I heard the Lord say, “Read Revelation”. And I read chapters 1 and 2 and stopped and went back to Hebrews. [laughing]
SID: [LAUGHS]
JOHN: So I thought okay, so I go to Revelation. I pick up, and I start reading on chapter 3, where Jesus is speaking to the Church. Now Sid here’s the situation. These are seven historic Churches and Jesus is talking to them. You know a lot of people say well you know the way Jesus preached it was to the Jews of the Old Testament. They weren’t under New Testament times. Paul got that real revelation. I’m like okay, what does Jesus say to the Church today? Well here’s the thing. That’s seven historic Asian Churches. But God would NEVER put those seven prophetic words in the Bible if it didn’t have prophetic application. In other words, those words apply to us today. But Jesus says to this Church at Sardis, he says, “You have a name that says you’re alive.” Now I want you to think about that. You have a reputation that says you’re alive. What’s going to give a church a reputation of being alive? They’re growing, they’re popular, people are excited about the services. He said but in reality, you’re dead!
SID: Mmm!
JOHN: Now here’s Jesus speaking to a church and it’s not, just a historic Church, it’s prophetically, to the Church today. He says you have a name. You have a reputation that says you’re alive but you’re really dead! Here’s the truth. You’re dead! And He says this to them: Return to what you first believed. And then he starts talking about their clothing being stained. If we looked at clothing, clothing always represents our acts, our works. Paul said Cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the clothing of our flesh and the clothing of our spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. If you look at Revelation, the white clothing of God’s people was the righteous acts of the saints. But Jesus says to them your clothing is soiled. It’s stained! It’s stained with the world. And then Jesus makes this statement to that church in Sardis. He says hey, “Go back to what you first believed!” Well Sid, all through the Church, all through the Church history holiness has been a major issue for the Church. Yet we’re not hearing it talked about. Why? Because holiness calls us to accountability. And there are many that say this, Sid. They say we have, we were made holy, the moment we got saved. That’s true. Ephesians, chapter 1 makes it clear. That God put us in Christ and set us apart and made us holy unto Himself. That’s our positional holiness. But the Bible also speaks about our behavioral holiness. Because Peter says Be holy in everything you do. He does not talk about, position; he’s talking about our lifestyle, our conduct, our behavior. So when Lisa and I got married Sid, she and I were one. We were married. And today she’s just as married to me as the day we got married. However, when we got married there were behavioral patterns that changed in Lisa that lined up with our covenant of being married. She stopped flirting with boys. She erased all the boys’ phone numbers on her phone. She basically said now I’m going to have the behavior that accompanies this covenant that I made. The behavior that accompanies the covenant of the free gift of salvation that’s given to us by grace is holy living. But yet it’s not a legalistic, it’s a healthy, holy living that opens us up to God in a way in which many people are missing out on today.
SID: You know you were quoting Revelation, John. And I’m reminded of a Revelation, a line that I think has to be repeated. “I’d rather you be hot or cold. But if you’re lukewarm”, in the Greek it says this; “If you’re lukewarm, I’ll vomit you out of my mouth.” Well, that should be a scary statement for most church-goers today. Tell me a bit about the presence of God connected with this. You talk in your book about Moses saying I will not go up this mountain unless Your presence goes with of me.
JOHN: Well the question all of us have to ask ourselves is what is our internal GPS set on? And I look at you know my GPS on my phone, on my iPhone. I use it all the time. If I land in a city you know and I want to go to Whole Foods, my favorite store. I plug in the address of Whole Foods and it takes me right to the Whole Foods. Now I’d be very frustrated if I plugged in what I thought was the address of Whole Foods and it took me back to the airport. I’d be frustrated when I saw Terminal One instead of the Whole Foods sign. So the question I have to ask is, what is our internal GPS set on? In other words what desire outweighs all other desires? Paul said it like this: “I press towards the goal of the mark of the high calling of God.” So there was a mark, there was a goal that he was pressing towards. His internal GPS was set! And I look at a lot of people today and you know they don’t have really their internal GPS firmly set. And I think we need to do that. If you look at some people, you know it’s really important to them, that they have community; that they’re socially acceptable. That they’re successful. They’re healthy. But yet if you look at the rich young ruler he had all of that and yet he still lacked something. There’s people that want to be – have a lot of friends, they want to have, community. But you know what? You can have community and still end up like Aaron, Moses’ brother down at the foot of the mountain, the center of the community. But yet, every day drawing people further from the heart of God. Your desire is to be, more-noble. You might want to help the poor and help the needy. And you know what? I love that about this generation, Sid. This is a young generation that really wants to help the victims of social injustice. I mean at Messenger International we’re helping women get out of sex trafficking in three nations in Asia. People love that and they partner with us. And I love that about this generation. But you know what? Paul said I can give everything I have to the poor, and he said, “And still be found wanting”. If you look at some people, their biggest goal is to be the biggest giver in their community. Well, Ananias and Sapphira gave the big gift, but yet look what happened with them! I look at my own personal life, Sid. I used to pray every day for an hour and a half. I would pray God use me to win multitudes to Jesus. God use me to heal the sick. God use me to win nations to Jesus. God use me to help people get delivered and I prayed so passionately and I did that for a year and a half. And one day God said your prayers are off target! And I remember when He said that to me, I was like, “WHAT”? I’m praying that you would use me to win nations to Jesus, to win souls and you’re saying, “I’m off target”? And then the Lord said this to me. He said, “Judas cast out devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas led people into repentance. Judas is in hell.”
SID: Mmm!
JOHN: And remember, I’m a Catholic boy. I was an altar boy for 8 years. I didn’t get this, but I started trembling; I was quaking. And I said God, “What is – what is the – what is the goal that I should be shooting for? What should my internal GPS be set on?” And God showed me another man named Moses. He was the Prince of the Nation. He had anything a man could want. He had any woman he could want. He had any toy he could want. He had servants at his beck and call but he left all of it because he was after something. He didn’t know fully what it was until He found it in a bush 40 years later on the backside of the desert. It was the presence of God! And that commitment to His presence would be tested later because God actually offered him the Promised Land. His popularity rating was at an all-time low and God said to Moses, He said hey, go ahead. I’m going to increase your popularity with the people and you will have a 100% approval rating when you hear what I’m about to say to you Moses. Go get the people. I’m going to send a choice angel. Go to the Promised Land which you’ve waited for 400 years but I’m not going. My presence is not going to go. And I am so glad that Moses answered correctly because Moses said, “If Your presence doesn’t go with us then don’t bring us up from here.” Here was the desert, the place of lack, the place of affliction; the place of suffering. The place where they didn’t have any variety of anything. And yet Moses, what he was saying is, “God if I have to choose”. Now listen carefully to these words that I am saying, “If I have to choose, I’d rather have Your presence apart from Your promises; then have Your promises apart from Your presence!” I’m telling you, I believe God’s heart was thrilled when Moses said that. God did not offer that
SID: I have to tell you, John, we have to take a break. However –
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
